Saturday, April 16, 2011

Iggy gettin' it?



"This not about me...this is not about Liberal Party of Canada" means sweet fuck all if Mr. Ignatieff isn't willing to compromise on a coalition with the other parties should the Conservatives find themselves with yet another minority win. If the Liberal leader (and the rest of them for that matter) are serious about putting Canadian democracy ahead of partisan interests, then they must be willing to set those interests aside to defeat the Party of Harper.

19 comments:

janfromthebruce said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
janfromthebruce said...

You are right but you could have gone further in what you are saying - here Iggy is talking about rising up against the Cons but is he taking it to the Cons - nope - it's a NDP held progressive seat by Glen

And it's all about the Liberal Party - video made in Sudbury Ontario - yes, a NDP held seat - but sure rise up and defeat the progressively held seat by Glenn Thibeault.

And Iggy wonders why he lacks credibility! It's about him and the Liberal Party and not about defeating Harper or that video - channeling Bruce (American idol rock star) would have made in a seat held by a Conservative.

Dana said...

Ignatieff is only allowed to speak in Liberal, BLOC or Conservative held ridings. Surely everyone knows that by now.

Alison said...

Iggy will not accommodate any version of a coalition unless it is clear to him that the majority of voters accept the concept and are demanding he do so. A coalition will only be built from the grassroots up, not the LPC down, but I fear we don't have enough time here. The catch 22 is - without his blessing, liberals will not be demanding it.

janfromthebruce said...

Dana, Iggy was speaking in an NDP held riding in Sudbury Ontario. Perhaps Iggy was secretly channeling the Parachute Club "rise up" edition!

Dana said...

"...putting Canadian democracy ahead of partisan interests..."

Never happen.

Scotian said...

Dana:

Notice how it is OK for Layton to be spending as much time as he is in ads attacking Ignatief and the Libs but god forbid Ignatief dare campaign for a Lib candidate in a NDP held riding.

As you said before and I agreed with you, I'll believe in this putting partisan interests aside for the greater good of stopping Harper in the left when I see it, and for my money the NDP from the leader on down are the single worst offenders in this regard (not the only ones, just the worst and the most damaging from my observations). As we see here yet again.

I've said since 2005 that any other time the Dippers want to take down the Libs that would have been fine with me, but not at the expense of a Harper government because he is qualitatively different not just from the Libs but also from the traditional conservative element of the Canadian political spectrum. His 5 years of governing have proven that to be if anything an understatement, yet how often are we STILL hearing Dippers claim there is little difference between them despite the reality of a wide chasm level difference.

These dippers are selling out the future of this nation and indeed its very survival for short term gains that they probably won't even get to official opposition status under. There is a reason I've become so hostile to the Layton NDP, it is their actions taken as opposed to their claims to being the party of principles first and defending Canadian democracy first above all else was most needed against Harper and instead of placing preventing his rise to the PMO (or making it as short as possible once he got there) as the most important goal they have consistently placed beating the Libs for seats as their most important goals both in actions and more often than not in words too.

Yes, real party of principles first there...NOT!!!

(Yes, I know I am sounding bitter about this people, guess what, I don't care! This *IS* the reality of things and it has been a cornerstone of Harper's rise and hold on power! The NDP have a lot to answer for for this, and the fact they are still too caught up in their own partisan blinders to see this is also one of the best arguments as to why they are still unfit to actually govern!

Are the Libs the best thing out there, especially with Ignatief as leader? Of course not! Are they still far better than a Harper CPC? By any sane reality based examination oh hells yes! Therefore since this country has time and again said it is not willing to trust the NDP federally with power, and even with their current surge they are still nowhere near close to being a credible governing option there is if you want Harper gone only one clear choice, and the fact that so many refuse to see it because they are blinded by partisan zeal, old grudges or whatever despite claiming to see the threat Harper poses to all of us really disgusts me! I was bitterly disappointed in the Americans when they voted to confirm GWB in 2004, and I am feeling the same way now about Canadians especially so called left wing Canadians if Harper is allowed to be in any position to form government again after this election!)

Dana said...

Scotian...stay sane and level my friend...the sun will rise...

I agree with you.

And in a perverse way I'm now beginning to look forward to the next 4 to 8 years.

I look forward to seeing the looks of horrified shock as Harper dismantles the cornerstones of the country.

I look forward to Harper finishing what Mulroney began and Quebec voting to secede.

I look forward to shrieking and howling that will result from the complete elimination of any pretense to federal support for a national health care program.

Most of all I look forward to the day that the realization dawns on the fucking, idiot, chowderheaded fools that none of it can be recovered once it's gone.

thwap said...

Vote NDP where the NDP candidate is the leading candidate, and Liberal where it's the Liberal candidate.

Neither party should be wasting its leaders' time campaigning in the ridings held by an incumbent who is a possible coalition partner.

Neither party has risen to the occasion.

Beijing York said...

I agree with thwap. Preventing a Harper majority has to be the main objective full stop. I was in an NDP stronghold until recently and I'm now in a highly sought after LPC riding.

The Contempt Party is running a former Liberal against Anita Neville. In addition to Glover calling the MP stale dated at the start of the election, Bateman's campaign team had to apologize for their "over-enthusiastic" young volunteers who replaced Neville signs with Bateman ones.

Who I'm voting for in this riding is a no-brainer even if I can't stand Iggy and think Neville's mid-East views suspect at best. (But then again, Pat Martin isn't exactly a champion of the Palestinians either.)

psa said...

harper is a bad man. he should be fired from his job. barring a wandering troll, i think that's a given here. beyond that, demanding that everyone hold their nose and vote against their better judgement doesn't seem a healthy response to the bad man.

fuck the school of foregone conclusions that says the ndp will never or that the lpc must. the mad clamour for strategic voting strikes me asa good way to reduce turnout. a low turnout is a harper government. it won' be people voting ndp against the liberals that will lose this vote to the wretched frickin' cons. it will be the unappealing chore of voting against your instincts, voting against rather than for something.

what will lose this election for the liberals will be their own failure to attract more voters to the polls. they will lose because they've spent half a decade sucking fumes and failing to serve this country. they will lose on their own merits, not because someone voted green or ndp instead of we hate harper. fuck.

strategic voting is a losing plan.

psa said...

and for the record, i won't trust parties that play the voter for patsies. i want the parties to go out and hit the hustings with every gram of energy and passion they can muster. i want liberals to grow some fucking spinal columns, generate the best platform the middle managers and focus groups can assemble for them and campaign to win in every riding. i want layton and the ndp to stand up for what they believe and fight tooth and nail to become the government, not to be hand maids or select enablers. and i want the cpc to drive off a cliff into the sea. i have no fucking time or patience for anybody whining that one of the opposition parties was mean to the other one and whah harper will win 'cos of meanies. that holds as much water as the evil monsters stripping civil liberties and crying that if we don't let them lock people up forever without charge or trial then the terrorists win. those motherfuckers are the terrorists. if you have to hold your nose to vote you. are. doing. it. wrong.

Scotian said...

Thwap:

Nice ignoring the fact that only the NDP leader has been running national ads against the Libs, while the reverse is NOT true! Nice ignoring the fact that Layton spent as much time going after Ignatief in the debates!

You can write all you want about what is needed, but your leader and your party is NOT putting its money where it's mouth is on this one, and unlike the Libs is attacking their electoral competition far more than the Harper CPC!!! Again, the Libs have not been doing so anywhere near to the same degree!!! WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT???

Dipper partisans have done more to aid Harper than any partisans save his own, and Layton's "leadership" has not been against the Harper CPC but against the Libs for three elections straight now and we are seeing it yet again this time out too. This was why I agreed with Dana at your blog, why I said what I did already here, and why I find hearing Dippers call for putting partisanship aside while not castigating their own leadership for not doing so offensive! It is needing more than just saying you are for it, you also need to hold your own leadership to account for their failure to follow through, and your false equivalencies between the Libs and the NDP on this point just underscores that for all you say you believe in it you actually don't practice it when it might actually harm your own side's interests!

BY:

If I believed Dippers really meant it and their leadership actually was being told by that membership to knock it off it would be one thing, but I don't see that do I ? I would love to see this be real, but what I see as a non-partisan of any party and someone whose focus has ALWAYS been to stop Harper since before he became PM as my blog and blogging comments throughout prove tells me otherwise much to my sadness, bitterness, and yes anger starting to verge on fury!

Dana:

The problem is I live in NS, and if the Separatists in Quebec do go my region is not to put too fine a point on it FUCKED! We keep getting forgotten about whenever someone says let Quebec go it won't hurt Canada, well we are four Provinces, two of them founding members, and it WILL hurt us, indeed the separatist threat has done serious economic damage to us as it is over the past 40 years! So I can't be so detached as you about that possibility, although I will admit I do understand how you got to where you are feeling.

For me, I've been playing Cassandra where Harper is concerned for years now, proven correct repeatedly and treated much like she was for my troubles as well as being branded a Lib partisan/operative despite there being no actual evidence to support that other than the biases of those that don't want to face political reality as it exists in this nation.

You really are one of the few who actually understands me and what I have been trying to do all this time, and for that I am very grateful. Indeed, it was the frustration that came of the 2008 elections that caused me to have to stop political blogging, my heart literally was being destroyed by it, and even now I can only handle so much of it before I have to pull back. Even so, even given the risks, I cannot stay silent during the election, my convictions and beliefs compel me to try to get people to understand the reality yet again, even if once more I am treated to the same derision. This is my home after all, and I love it too much not to do what I can.

Beijing York said...

Scotian, I'm not saying that the NDP's approach is honourable. Far from it. I cringe whenever I see their stupid anti-Liberal/Ignatieff election ads.

Both the NDP and LPC disappoint me to no end as I'm sure some MPs might have noticed from letters sent. Once in a fit of rage, I sent an FU message to one of Brad Lavigne's we need your support now spam messages. I can't remember what had infuriated me on that one day but there have been lots of votes for legislation that I absolutely disagree with.

There are only a handful of MPs that impress me including that Bloc priest (now retired) who stood against the Church and voted down Epps' backdoor attempt to criminalize abortion. I'm also a huge fan of Bill Siksay who did not vote with the rest of his party in supporting one of Harper's many omnibus crime bills.

Ideally we would have proportional representation and a functional democracy so that we could vote with our conscience and facts in hand every time as suggested by PSA. But this last decade has basically destroyed our system. Used to be that you felt that a minority government could be controlled by Parliament. Harper has proven that that is no longer true.

Anyway, I for one welcome the Cassandras of the world, Scotian. Not enough of them in my opinion and most have been absolutely right about Iraq, Afghanistan, and the general sad erosion of democratic rights and liberties throughout the western world.

Dana said...

Yeah but while we Cassandras may turn out to have been right about things before the fact we are also never listened to about what to do after the fact.

The only people listened to after everything goes into the shitter are the people who tossed it all into the shitter in the first place.

So we're not listened to before everything goes to hell and then we're ignored after hell turns out to be unbearable.

Makes me want to just say oh FUCK IT and pull the plug sometimes.

Anyone else here participate in a DFAIT online foreign policy review back in the latter part of the Chretien years? Interesting times, just before GWB unleashed shock and awe, before the lttle guy from Shawinigan declined George's kind offer, before the business community and every single CEO in the land hollered about missing out on all those Iraq reconstruction contracts (how I wish they were all there now), before adscam, before the rise of Herr Harper and night of the living dead.

Most Canadians participating I would say would be Con voters today. They were all for riding off to Iraq with buddy and got very pissed with me for raining on their glorious parade. Assholes all.

Scotian remembers the days at he Washington Monthly board because he was there too. Unbelievably ignorant people parroting Cheney about Iraquis and the fact that were no religious divisions there and the coalition would be welcomed with open arms...

We've been fighting for a long time. We've been on the right side of it all all along the line and at every turn, no matter the subject, we've been subjected to ridicule, contempt, hatred you name it - from the right and the left equally.

I, frankly, am tired of it. Tired and disheartened.

So we'll be ignored again.

So fuck you too.

Scotian said...

Dana:

"Yeah but while we Cassandras may turn out to have been right about things before the fact we are also never listened to about what to do after the fact."

Oh I know that, I use the Cassandra comparison in full awareness of this, indeed because of it. Like you I am tired of it, and if it was the US we were talking about I would have stopped bothering (as indeed I did when the Obamaites basically chased me off the boards because I dared ask where the substance was and insist that whoever came to power after GWB had to clean up some serious messes), but this is my home, my family's home, and a home multiple generations of my family have helped build including in the political realm and I will be *DAMNED* if I turn my back on that even if I have to be seen as I have been.

I understand your frustration Dana, I really do, and it is not like I don't share it in full measure either. But I also have to stay true to my convictions and beliefs one of which is that I cannot just turn away when I see real evil taking power (and yes people I do see that with Harper, evil is not just open mustache twirling villains it is also those that impose their wills upon all regardless of how the rest feel about it and do so by first stealthily gaining the power to do so, and in that Harper fits the bill and then some) especially when it also besmirches the honour of my family, both the Liberal AND ESPECIALLY the traditional Conservative side of it.

BY:

I did not mean to make it sound like I was lumping you in that group, I know your views better than that. I'm just getting really tired of having Dippers go on about the need for a united front while they stay silent about the way their leadership is clearly spending at least as much time attacking the Libs in their rhetoric and ads as they are the Harper CPC. I agree the united front is needed, and if I had any reason to think the CPC candidate in this riding could get the seat if I failed to vote NDP (my riding is NDP held with the Lib the second place finisher, the CPC is not well liked here) I'd hold my nose and vote NDP despite my fury with Layton and that party (the Libs are not anywhere near as far into my bad books despite their own issues both from when they were government and since) but thankfully I don't have to here and since I don't I refuse to give them my moral blessing and vote subsidy given just how much I do hold them responsible for the rise and continuance of the Harper government.

Part of the problem with being a Cassandra BY is what Dana said, not only are you right at the time but you are dismissed and mocked for saying it instead of taken seriously let alone actually listened to. It takes a toll on a person, it really does, especially when this is dealing with something that is near and dear to one's heart, which this is for me. I really care about this stuff despite not being a party partisan (something else people have a hard time accepting, it appears many believe only party partisans can be interested in politics in detail and depth, whereas I was raised to believe that it is a civic responsibility not only to vote but to do so informed and responsibly because the process and system is as important as the policies and platforms of the various options) which also frustrates me no end.

Anyway, sorry if you thought I was branding you with the same that I am people like janfromthebruce and thwap, I wasn't. You and I may not hold the same area of the political spectrum but we clearly do recognize the real danger facing the nation, pity the partisans especially the Dipper ones aren't. I mean really, while the Libs compete for seats with the Dippers, they aren't the ones doing up national ad buys against their leader and party and starting such fights, no that has been Layton each and every time, as a rule the Libs seem to attack the Dippers in response to attack, not originate, which is another reason why they are in my bad books as much as they are.

Dana said...

"That one may smile and smile and be a villain" Hamlet Act 1, scene 5, 105–109

I'm not apologizing to anyone for anything Scotian.

They're all equally to blame as far as I'm concerned.

The right wingers demonized us just as gleefully as the lefties did and I say a pox on both their houses.

They'll get what they deserve once Harper gets his greasy soul into unfettered power.

I have nothing but bitter curses for the lot of them.

Scotian said...

Dana:

Not asking you to apologize to anyone, and as I said I can understand your perspective even if I don't share it in every and all respects (despite clearly sharing it in many to most). I apologized to BY because I reread what I said and could see how BY might have thought I was lumping BY in with the Dippers I am bitching about currently. You are clearly a bit more bitter than I am to this point (although I will freely admit I am not that far from you on this too, my family has heard my say much the same as you do in your last comment on more than one occasion as of late).

I haven't completely lost hope yet because he hasn't managed to get the majority, once that happens that's it for me I suspect. Until that happens I still see reason to have shreds of hope that things have not gone so far as to be totally lost despite all that has been said and done to the nation, the people, and even to me. I don't however hold it against you that you don't, nor do I insist you do or feel any differently than you do, as you know my views and have for many years both here and from back on the US blogs I know yours, and I will not diminish nor disparage all you have done to that has led you to this point.

I will also admit I am at heart an optimist, even when it is hard to be so (and it is hard for me in this aspect believe that please), and also stubborn and unwilling to give up the good fight even when things are so stacked against me. I guess I do this also so I can say afterwards that I tried as hard as I could and know it to be true. A matter of self respect as much as anything else, especially the way my sense of personal honour is wired. That said, it has taken a real toll on my health to do so over the last five years of Harperland.

Those that should have known better and didn't act appropriately may deserve what they get, but what about those that did and did what they could to prevent it but lost anyway, do you curse them as well? For those I keep going and being Cassandra as much as for myself, but eventually we all burn out in such fights and clearly you have, and I will NOT chide you for having gotten there, it is not like you just gave up and didn't try, you really did and you fought some hard fights against these forces of darkness in the past as I well know. I may not have hit that point yet but I know I still could and I will not ever condemn someone who has gone as far as they are able to and finally reached their limits for feeling the way you do, it is those that never fought in the first place and act so that receive my contempt and condemnations.

Anyway Dana, just wanted to make sure you know that I get where you come from, and that while I am not there yet myself I don't hold it against you, I just hope you don't hold my inability to quit yet despite everything against me...ok?

Dana said...

Oh, Jaysus, no my friend. I have nothing but the highest regard for you.

And I may rediscover some well of willingness in the next day, one never knows.

But today -

Jesus Christ I'm starting to miss being proud to be a Canadian.